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muggsy
12-19-2011, 04:16 PM
H.R.822 National Right-to-Carry Reciprocity Act of 2011
I am writing as your constituent in the 29th Congressional district of New York. I support H.R.822 - National Right-to-Carry Reciprocity Act of 2011, and am tracking it using OpenCongress.org, the free public resource website for government transparency and accountability.

Any state issued drivers licenses is valid in all other states via reciprocity, it makes no sense that a second amendment recognized and protected right not enjoy this same fourteenth amendment protection.

I'm a lifetime member of the NRA and I agree with this NRA sponsored legislation. Here are the NRA's observations regarding this legislation including a section of myths and facts.

H.R. 822, introduced in the U.S. House by Representatives Cliff Stearns (R-Fla.) and Heath Shuler (D-N.C.), would allow any person with a valid state-issued concealed firearm permit to carry a concealed firearm in any state that issues concealed firearm permits, or that does not prohibit the carrying of concealed firearms for lawful purposes. A state's laws governing where concealed firearms may be carried would apply within its borders. The bill applies to D.C., Puerto Rico and U.S. territories. It would not create a federal licensing system; rather, it would require the states to recognize each others' carry permits, just as they recognize drivers' licenses and carry permits held by armored car guards. Rep. Stearns has introduced such legislation since 1995.

• H.R. 822 recognizes the significant impact of the landmark cases, District of Columbia v. Heller (2008) and McDonald v. City of Chicago (2010), which found that the Second Amendment protects a fundamental, individual right to keep and bear arms and that the protections of the Second Amendment extend to infringements under state law.

• Today, 49 states have laws permitting concealed carry, in some circumstances. Forty states, accounting for two-thirds of the U.S. population, have right-to-carry laws. Thirty-six of those have "shall issue" permit laws (including Alaska and Arizona, which also allow carrying without a permit), two have fairly administered "discretionary issue" permit laws, and Vermont (along with Alaska and Arizona) allows carrying without a permit. (Eight states have restrictive discretionary issue laws.)

• Citizens with carry permits are more law-abiding than the general public. Only 0.01% of nearly 1.2 million permits issued by Florida have been revoked because of firearm crimes by permit holders. Similarly low percentages of permits have been revoked in Texas, Virginia, and other right-to-carry states that keep such statistics. Right-to-carry is widely supported by law enforcement officials and groups.

• States with right-to-carry laws have lower violent crime rates. On average, right-to-carry states have 22 percent lower total violent crime rates, 30 percent lower murder rates, 46 percent lower robbery rates, and 12 percent lower aggravated assault rates, compared to the rest of the country. The seven states with the lowest violent crime rates are right-to-carry states. (Data: FBI.)

• Crime declines in states with right-to-carry laws. Since adopting right-to-carry in 1987, Florida's total violent crime and murder rates have dropped 32 percent and 58 percent, respectively. Texas' violent crime and murder rates have dropped 20 percent and 31 percent, respectively, since enactment of its 1996 right-to-carry law. (Data: FBI.)

• The right of self-defense is fundamental, and has been recognized in law for centuries. The Declaration of Independence asserts that "life" is among the unalienable rights of all people. The Second Amendment guarantees the right of the people to keep and bear arms for "security."

• The laws of all states and the constitutions of most states recognize the right to use force in self-defense. The Supreme Court has stated that a person "may repel force by force" in self-defense, and is "entitled to stand his ground and meet any attack made upon him with a deadly weapon, in such a way and with such force" as needed to prevent "great bodily injury or death." (Beard v. United States (1895))

• Congress affirmed the right to own guns for "protective purposes" in the Gun Control Act (1968) and Firearm Owners' Protection Act (1986). In 1982, the Senate Judiciary Committee Subcommittee on the Constitution described the right to arms as "a right of the individual citizen to privately possess and carry in a peaceful manner firearms and similar arms."

It is important to note that, despite what a handful of self-proclaimed "pro-gun" activists claim, H.R. 822 would not create a federal registration or licensing system, nor would it establish a minimum federal standard for a carry permit. Rather, it would require the states to recognize each others' carry permits, just as they recognize driver's licenses and carry permits held by armored car guards. Unfortunately, these self-proclaimed "gun rights" supporters, who have no active lobbying presence in Congress or any legislature, have an agenda that has very little to do with promoting the interests of gun owners.

Here are the FACTS about a few of their claims:

Myth: H.R. 822 would involve the federal bureaucracy in setting standards for carry permits, resulting in "need" requirements, higher fees, waiting periods, national gun owner registration, or worse.

FACT: H.R. 822 doesn't require -- or even authorize -- any such action by any federal agency. In fact, since it would amend the Gun Control Act, it would fall under a limitation within that law that authorizes "only such rules and regulations as are necessary to carry out" the GCA's provisions. No federal rules or regulations would be needed to implement H.R. 822, which simply overrides certain state laws.

Myth: H.R. 822 would destroy permitless carry systems such as those in Arizona, Alaska, Vermont and Wyoming.

FACT: H.R. 822 would have absolutely no effect on how the permitless carry states' laws work within those states. For residents of Arizona, Alaska and Wyoming, where permits are not required but remain available under state law, H.R. 822 would make those permits valid in all states that issue permits to their own residents. Residents of Vermont, where no permits are issued or required, could obtain nonresident permits from other states to enjoy the benefits of H.R. 822.

Myth: If H.R. 822 moved through the legislative process, it would be subject to anti-gun amendments.

TRUTH: By this logic, neither NRA, nor any other pro-gun group, should ever promote any pro-gun reform legislation. But inaction isn't an option for those of us who want to make positive changes for gun owners. Instead, we know that by careful vote counting and strategic use of legislative procedure, anti-gun amendments can be avoided or defeated.

Sincerely,
Walter Brown

Muggsy

jocko
12-19-2011, 04:29 PM
indeed I just rea that the othger day in the Rifleman..

John222
12-19-2011, 04:33 PM
+1
Couldn't agree more. Those opposing this legislation are doing so with political motivation. They don't want a democratic president to get credit for approving this legislation. They would gladly throw the baby out with the bath water for spite. This legislation is long overdue.

muggsy
12-21-2011, 10:09 PM
+1
Couldn't agree more. Those opposing this legislation are doing so with political motivation. They don't want a democratic president to get credit for approving this legislation. They would gladly throw the baby out with the bath water for spite. This legislation is long overdue.

I believe that Obama has vowed to veto the bill if it passes. I could be wrong on that.

kahrseye
12-21-2011, 10:47 PM
Muggsy, I agree with everything you said. I don't believe Obummer will ever sign it.

tv_racin_fan
12-22-2011, 09:19 AM
Myths? Have you read the amendments or proposed amendments?

Amendment No. 2—Rep. McCarthy (D-NY): This amendment would specify that the legislation can only go into effect in states that have passed legislation enacting the bill.

Yeah that is so awesome, the federal govt is going to pass a a bill that each and every state has to also pass in order for it to have any effect in that state? I can see South Carolina who won't reciprocate with Georgia currently because the stipulations for aquiring a permit in Georgia are more lenient just saying well heck forget our position and lets pass this bill...

Amendment No. 3—Rep. Hastings (D-FL): This amendment would exempt states from issuing a carry permit on the basis of state reciprocity which do not require individuals to apply for and complete a carry permit application in person.

Oh wait now doesn't this leave Vermont out of the equation? Now those out of state permits will be useless since one does not have to apply in person...

Amendment No. 4—Rep. Jackson Lee (D-TX): This amendment would require a state to create a comprehensive database to contain all permits and licenses issued by the state for carrying a concealed weapon and make this comprehensive database available to law enforcement officers from all states 24 hours a day.

What was that about no database again???

Amendment No. 6—Rep. Johnson (D-GA): This amendment would require the possession or carrying of a concealed handgun in a state to be subject to “any law of the state that limits the eligibility to possess or carry a concealed handgun to persons who have received firearm safety training that includes a live-fire exercise.’’

What was that about no "national standards" will be set? Who exactly do you think you are fooling here?

Amendment No. 8—Rep. Jackson Lee (D-TX): This amendment would require a person intending to carry or possess a concealed handgun in a state to inform that state’s law enforcement of their intentions at least 24 hours prior.

Oh now there is a goody...

Amendment No. 9—Rep. Cicilline (D-RI): This amendment would limit the bill from taking effect in a state until the State Attorney General, head of the State police, and the Secretary of State have jointly certified that the other state’s carry laws are substantially similar to its own licensing or permitting requirements.

Here we go again with that standards thing...


sigh...

TriggerMan
12-22-2011, 10:00 AM
Myths? Have you read the amendments or proposed amendments?

Amendment No. 2—Rep. McCarthy (D-NY): This amendment would specify that the legislation can only go into effect in states that have passed legislation enacting the bill.

Yeah that is so awesome, the federal govt is going to pass a a bill that each and every state has to also pass in order for it to have any effect in that state? I can see South Carolina who won't reciprocate with Georgia currently because the stipulations for aquiring a permit in Georgia are more lenient just saying well heck forget our position and lets pass this bill...

Amendment No. 3—Rep. Hastings (D-FL): This amendment would exempt states from issuing a carry permit on the basis of state reciprocity which do not require individuals to apply for and complete a carry permit application in person.

Oh wait now doesn't this leave Vermont out of the equation? Now those out of state permits will be useless since one does not have to apply in person...

Amendment No. 4—Rep. Jackson Lee (D-TX): This amendment would require a state to create a comprehensive database to contain all permits and licenses issued by the state for carrying a concealed weapon and make this comprehensive database available to law enforcement officers from all states 24 hours a day.

What was that about no database again???

Amendment No. 6—Rep. Johnson (D-GA): This amendment would require the possession or carrying of a concealed handgun in a state to be subject to “any law of the state that limits the eligibility to possess or carry a concealed handgun to persons who have received firearm safety training that includes a live-fire exercise.’’

What was that about no "national standards" will be set? Who exactly do you think you are fooling here?

Amendment No. 8—Rep. Jackson Lee (D-TX): This amendment would require a person intending to carry or possess a concealed handgun in a state to inform that state’s law enforcement of their intentions at least 24 hours prior.

Oh now there is a goody...

Amendment No. 9—Rep. Cicilline (D-RI): This amendment would limit the bill from taking effect in a state until the State Attorney General, head of the State police, and the Secretary of State have jointly certified that the other state’s carry laws are substantially similar to its own licensing or permitting requirements.

Here we go again with that standards thing...


sigh...

Are these proposed ammendments or are they in a FINAL Bill? I'd like to read some more on all of these. Can you link us to a source...other than the guy who's been spamming me for weeks. Dudley something or other.

tv_racin_fan
12-22-2011, 10:11 AM
I believe they were proposed amendments and that was just the synopsis version.

http://www.gop.gov/bill/112/1/hr822

It appears that all but one of the amendments failed... wasn't my point to show that what has been reported is wrong. In fact what has been reported is factual. The issue I have is that it seems some people seem to forget that congress in general changes bills as they go thru the process and that what was originally a good clean bill may come out the other end as something entirely different. Thus the myths may or may not in fact be myths.

Just the same any time you want to check on a bill this is the place to go.

http://thomas.loc.gov/home/thomas.php

You need to have some clue on the name or the number of the bill tho.

tv_racin_fan
12-22-2011, 10:12 AM
The bill passed the House and is in the Judiciary committee in the Senate... apparently.

muggsy
12-22-2011, 12:13 PM
The bill passed the House and is in the Judiciary committee in the Senate... apparently.

I think that the bill will languish there until after the election. It will pass eventually. I'm not going to stop shaving until it passes. I hate tripping on my beard. :)

tv_racin_fan
12-22-2011, 05:32 PM
I'm pretty sure it will pass eventually. I just wonder what sort of amendments it will have on it when it does pass, and what the final bill will look like when it reaches the desk of the President.

aray
12-29-2011, 04:26 PM
So here is the most recent example of what could have been avoided had HR 822 already been passed into law:

On December 22 (just last week) a fourth-year medical student from Tennessee tries to visit NYC's 9/11 Memorial to pay her respects. She and her husband are in town for a job interview. She's a law abiding citizen with absolutely no criminal history.

While she could have made a fine doctor someday, she unfortunately was not as informed on gun laws as she was on medicine. She sees the "no guns allowed" sign at the entrance to the memorial, asks the LEO where she can check her gun, and is arrested.

She's now facing a mandatory minimum 3 1/2 year prison sentence. If convicted (and technically she is guilty in NY of what is legal in TN) she may also be unable to practice medicine due to the felony conviction.

So here she is, a productive and contributing member of society, and her life is about to be destroyed.

Did she make a mistake? Of course. Should she have known better? Yes but keep in mind her common everyday experience in TN would not have prepared her for visiting NYC out of state while carrying a weapon. Is society better off by sending her to jail in NY, separating her from her family for at least 3.5 years, destroying her career, ruining her life, and eliminating a good doctor from NYC? Well I think you know how I'd answer that question. (And oh, I hope she's had time to have all the kids that she wants [not that she'll see them again for years] because she'll be 43 when she gets out - probably too late to have any more.)

HR 822 would have prevented this, and countless stories like this across the country in the 9 remaining no/may issue states.

http://www.nypost.com/p/news/local/manhattan/pistol_whipped_at_wtc_1x32hgT52UNhxkP36ZYAgJ#ixzz1 hwMnXepE

John222
12-29-2011, 07:42 PM
Well, we have lots of silly inconsistent laws. For instance, the local cops catch you with some grass and you get a 15 fine and a slap on the wrist. If a federal official catches you, the result will be a mandatory min. sentence of 10 years in a federal prison. Or maybe you want to be a teacher. Get an alcohol related offence like an underage or DUI, kiss your dreams goodbye. Very very stupid silly laws.

muggsy
12-31-2011, 05:33 PM
Well, we have lots of silly inconsistent laws. For instance, the local cops catch you with some grass and you get a 15 fine and a slap on the wrist. If a federal official catches you, the result will be a mandatory min. sentence of 10 years in a federal prison. Or maybe you want to be a teacher. Get an alcohol related offence like an underage or DUI, kiss your dreams goodbye. Very very stupid silly laws.

Were a nation of laws and the laws have to be obeyed. That's how a society functions.

John222
12-31-2011, 05:54 PM
Were a nation of laws and the laws have to be obeyed. That's how a society functions.

Many times the law are sponsored by fools. But many people suffer until the leaders come to their senses. For instance prohibition... A fools law that eventually got overturned.

HDoc
12-31-2011, 06:06 PM
On December 22 (just last week) a fourth-year medical student from Tennessee tries to visit NYC's 9/11 Memorial to pay her respects. She and her husband are in town for a job interview. She's a law abiding citizen with absolutely no criminal history.

While she could have made a fine doctor someday, she unfortunately was not as informed on gun laws as she was on medicine.

So here she is, a productive and contributing member of society, and her life is about to be destroyed.

Did she make a mistake? Of course. Should she have known better? Yes
Carrying a weapon anywhere in NY or NYC is not just a mistake. It's gross stupidity. This is an educated woman, no some backwoods hayseed.
I'll agree the NY laws are grossly ridiculous and that's one of the reasons I
left the state for good many years ago, but how many of YOU think that your state CCW permit is good in all 50 states? Two minutes on the web would let you know from any of a dozen sites. I feel for her, but I'm not sure she has enough common sense.

ltxi
12-31-2011, 06:06 PM
Were a nation of laws and the laws have to be obeyed. That's how a society functions.

Well, I could argue that. The national 55 mph speed limit being a prime, later than prohibition example of stupid, correctly ignored, and/but ultimately destructive law. If you're old enough to have lived through that, especially from the beginning, you'll understand. All it actually accomplished was to raise a generation of drivers with utter disdain for traffic laws.

ltxi
12-31-2011, 06:09 PM
Carrying a weapon anywhere in NY or NYC is not just a mistake. It's gross stupidity. This is an educated woman, no some backwoods hayseed.
I'll agree the NY laws are grossly ridiculous and that's one of the reasons I
left the state for good many years ago, but how many of YOU think that your state CCW permit is good in all 50 states? Two minutes on the web would let you know from any of a dozen sites. I feel for her, but I'm not sure she has enough common sense.

Gotta totally go with you on this one.

aray
01-18-2012, 08:45 AM
John Lott, author of "More Guns Less Crime", has an interesting editorial on this today:

http://www.foxnews.com/opinion/2012/01/17/should-new-york-tourists-have-their-lives-destroyed-because-concealed-carry/

JohnR
01-18-2012, 09:50 AM
...and the 16th Amendment was just a little ol' innocent few words that didn't mean we'd have 2,500 pages of tax laws today. DON'T FALL FOR IT.

"The Congress shall have power to lay and collect taxes on incomes, from whatever source derived, without apportionment among the several States, and without regard to any census or enumeration."

muggsy
01-20-2012, 09:40 AM
Regardless of your arguments the law is the law. If you believe that the law is wrong you have the option of changing the law. You also have the option of violating the law, but as a law breaker you are also subject to the penalties of violating the law if you're caught. That's our system in a nut shell. It's the way we operate as a society.

les strat
01-20-2012, 10:50 AM
But over time, little laws and acts, like the ones that have been discussed ad nauseum, is what has allowed the laws to creep up on us and multiply. If they are nipped in the bud and challenged from the getgo instead of trusting the govt being out for our own good, we wouldn't have to go through so much to undo any of it. It's about being heard. But now, if you are heard, and they don't like what you have to say, what could happen to you?????

This is all we are saying. It is simple. A patriotic cittizen challenges and questions, not agrees. Somehow, that word has taken on a meaning of dumb blind faith.