P45 Failure to Fire Light Primer Strike

help I cannot trust this gun to fire everytime. Very ammo senstive and have not been able to associate a particular ammo that will be 100% reliable. It is very unreliable with reloads. Over the past three years the gun has been back to Kahr three times and on the last trip they replaced the entire gun.

I put the gun away for year and discontinued its use, but have brought it back out since it is outstandingly accurate and excellent carry. But can't trust it.
I found a burr on the striker at the point where the safety block plunger had been hitting it. I thought for sure this was the problem but removing the burr didn't eliminate. The striker parts are all free and not binding so- - I'm thinking the trigger bar might have something to do with it.

I read some questions about the trigger transfer bar clearance, not letting the striker spring to pre **** properly any body got some hints.

I sure don't have a solid answer for you but it seems you've checked everything else. Some here have had trigger bar issues and once they were replaced all was well.
Since that area is virtually a no mans land for the average owner a call or email to kahr describing in as much detail as you can your issues would probably be the next best step.
If you haven't already I would try factory ball ammo, leave all reloads out of the equation for now. I suspect that isn't the issue but have to eliminate that possibility.
The trigger is resetting or you have a dead trigger following these misfires or light primer strikes?

gman: does the gun fire without any ammo in it? If not then you have a timing issue and it could be the trigger bar or it could even be the entire slide, not actually locking up good enough to let all moving parts fall into place.

If the gun does what it should without ammo in it then I would change brands of ammo to see if it could be the ammo. If by chance those rounds are to long and hitting or getting stuck in the throat , then, it will put the gun out of time and you won't even notice it.

you did not state that once they replaced the gun, whether you then broke it back in or what. It might just need a good cleaning in the striker channel area. That little hole in the bottom of the slide willdo that with a spray can and nozzle. a trigger bar out of spec will give light strikes even without a round in the chamber to. Ihate to hear this about your gun, u certainly have paid your dues with it and now for it to benot right would be very frustrating.

u need to eliminate any possablle issues before getting ahold of kahr. but if you callthem, defninitely insist that this is the 4th time back for this gun (technically) and you should not have to pay to send it back, But again be very sure that you have eliminated any possable issues before calling them. The gun being new, maybe you should go to the kahr tech secion and hit on the KAHR LUBE CHART AND ALSO ON PROPPER PREPPING OF YOUR NEW KAHR....

I have fired plus 400 rnds, I have disassembled cleaned checked for free movement of parts. Looks fine. yes, it will dry fire seems fine with the striker protruding from breech face. I just measured the chamber depth of 0.910 . For a colt 1911 match chamber this is on the high side of 0.905-0.910 so this should be okay. The hood to breech face clearance is good with 0.003.

I think what's going on is the striker pin is only protruding past the breech face by 0.025. The minimum SAAMI spec for case length is 0.895 and with my total headspace 0.913 (chamber of 0.910 plus hood of 0.003) means a clearance of 0.018 is present (0.913-.0895) with only 0.025 protruding; (0.008) this isn't much of a strike on a primer.

Anybody else ever see this , how far does others P45 striker protrude from the breech face? you can do this by placing a feeler gage flat on the breech face while holding the striker block up and helping the striker pin push as far as it can go before bottoming out.

Previous replys certainly bring excelent points. I'd like to share one of my experiences with the forum:

I had what may be a similar problem with a CW45 (I don't recall checking for a primer strike). Insert magazine, fire one round, no trigger reset, slap-rack-BLAM, no trigger reset, slap-rack-BLAM, no trigger reset . . . Gave up after 2 magazines of that & went to clean and troubleshoot. After field strip, pulled the trigger as in firing, pushed the "ear" at the rear of the trigger bar downward (as the recoiling slide would), released the trigger and watched for the trigger bar spring to push the rear of the trigger bar back up to it's "normal" position. It didn't. Under good lighting, I could see a "step" on the polymer frame was catching the top edge of the "ear" and keeping it from returning to the "ready-to-fire" position. I checked my other CW45. No "step" at that point on the frame. Don't know if that was a bad molding process, missed machining step, broken machining tool, or what. My slap-rack must have put enough sidways torque to jar the ear up and over the step. Call to Kahr with a description of the problem and what I had found resulted in a return authorization number. The pistol was picked up at my house, repaired and returned in about a week -- all on Kahr's dime.

Guess part of the New Kahr Prep (or even at the gunshop if they don't object to dryfire--take snap-caps along) should be: With a TRIPPLE CHECKED EMPTY pistol: 1. Pull the trigger (listen for click of firing pin) 2. Hold trigger fully to rear while cycling slide. 3. Release trigger completely (should be able to feel reset) 4. Pull trigger one more time to verify reset (listen for click)

Gman, your #2 post got there while I was writing mine. Looks like you may be on to something.

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Originally Posted by gman

...I think what's going on is the striker pin is only protruding past the breech face by 0.025. The minimum SAAMI spec for case length is 0.895 and with my total headspace 0.913 (chamber of 0.910 plus hood of 0.003) means a clearance of 0.018 is present (0.913-.0895) with only 0.025 protruding; (0.008) this isn't much of a strike on a primer.

Anybody else ever see this , how far does others P45 striker protrude from the breech face? you can do this by placing a feeler gage flat on the breech face while holding the striker block up and helping the striker pin push as far as it can go before bottoming out.

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gman,
I'm getting .035" (+/- .001") protrusion on my CW45.
Regards,
Greg

BTW, welcome to the forums!

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Originally Posted by gman

help I cannot trust this gun to fire everytime. Very ammo senstive and have not been able to associate a particular ammo that will be 100% reliable. It is very unreliable with reloads. Over the past three years the gun has been back to Kahr three times and on the last trip they replaced the entire gun.

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Timing issues also relate to the magazine. I'm guessing here that you have checked all of them and the issue is universal - right? What I don't understand is that you had the issue, Kahr replaced it with a brand new - different - gun and the second one has the exact issues also?

If the gun is different but the problem carries over, odds are it's not the gun. Please check the magazine, replace the spring, clean it, etc.

Friend of mine has a CW45 with almost identical problems. He finally loaded some ammo with "ball" 230 gr. bullets and Federal primers. Not sure what his seating depth is, but problems seemed to go away. It seems that some bullet configurations do stick slightly in the lands and the gun won't fire or slide won't completely lock up. He tells me the Federal primers are "softer" than CCI or Winchester that we had both been using.

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Originally Posted by jfrey

Friend of mine has a CW45 with almost identical problems. He finally loaded some ammo with "ball" 230 gr. bullets and Federal primers. Not sure what his seating depth is, but problems seemed to go away. It seems that some bullet configurations do stick slightly in the lands and the gun won't fire or slide won't completely lock up. He tells me the Federal primers are "softer" than CCI or Winchester that we had both been using.

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the bullet gets stuck in the lands/throat of the barrel, it will put the slide out of time. I would think if a person gets a light strike, then he should eject the round and look at the bullet to see if he can see marks on the bullet.

Thanks for the info on the striker's pin out of the breech face by 0.035 compared to mine of 0.025. I did a little smithing and now have a presentation of 0.035 and did some fire testing today. Results- -

1) Will it fire various factory rounds that were 10% fail to fire (FTF), last week. All my FTF's appear as light primer strike, dead trigger (letting up trigger no reset click, no trigger reset until slide back and to fire positon). No rifle marks on the bullet, so bullet isn't too long.

2) Will it fire my typical reloads that it would not fire at all last week. WOLF primer, 205 RNFP (round nose flat point lead), 5.6 grains W231, all reloads are checked thru chamber checking gage. I use a Lee Factory taper sizer crimper.

3) Will it fire my typical reloads but with soft Federal 150 primers, that I use for revolver work.

RESULTS:
3) Wow, a real improvement, started with the 3) Reloads with Federal 150's, 30 rounds no FTF, no jambs real pretty never had been able to fire reloads.

1) I took a limited number of factory rounds, no FTF, with 20 rounds. Wolf steel case and WWB. Happy ness. Although gun would run these with infrequent FTF. No verification due to limited test sample.

2) My typical reloads- Wolf hard primers, fired 18 rounds, then started to get repeated FTF, like three in a row?? Breech is fully closed etc. same old light strike and dead trigger after FTF (see above). Pulled slide off, tried to see if the trigger bar is getting hung up, it didn't seem to be stuck. Worked the ears and trigger bar tab manually it looked like it was working releasing the reset etc. I'm not absolutely sure I comprehend this trigger bar reset sequence, etc.

After this manipulation, it ran with only couple FTF in test 2) and again no FTF in 3).

I think I still have a trigger bar sticking going on, because once I get a FTF, FTF becomes very frequent where it was running fine previously.

Obviously, having increased the striker protrusion by 0.010 to make it 0.035 really made an improvement and the federal 150 primers have showed no FTF.

Help- - -Trigger bar sequence, timing checks, ideas
Thanks to all

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I'm not absolutely sure I comprehend this trigger bar reset sequence, etc.

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This might be of some help:
http://www.kahr.com/kahr-unique-design.asp
If you view the page with Firefox and have add on Image Zoom
installed, you can zoom the animation for better viewing.
Regards,
Greg

How is the trigger bar and cocking cams connected. If the trigger bar sticks down occassionly does this cause the pre-cocking to not occur? Would this be cause for the failure to fire from light primer strikes

Thanks for the link to the operating diagram

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Originally Posted by gman

How is the trigger bar and cocking cams connected. If the trigger bar sticks down occassionly does this cause the pre-cocking to not occur? Would this be cause for the failure to fire from light primer strikes

Thanks for the link to the operating diagram

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gman,
You can get an idea how the parts interface, if you'll look at the parts diagram on this page:http://www.gunreports.com/special_re...mbly184-1.html

Here's how I see the system operating
Starting with a ready to fire pistol:
At this point the striker (under some spring pressure) is mated to a lobe/ear on the cocking cam (I'll call this ear the cocking lobe)
The trigger bar is mated to a surface below the center axis of the cocking cam by a perpendicular tab on its lower rear end. The trigger bar is spring loaded upward to keep this tab in contact with the surface of the cocking cam.
Pulling the trigger causes the trigger bar to move forward. The tab on the trigger bar starts pushing the cocking cam around its axis; as the cam rotates, the cocking lobe forces the striker rearward. As the forward motion of the trigger bar continues, the cam continues to rotate forcing the striker further rearward, but also rotating another lobe on the cocking cam into position. This lobe pushes the striker block up clearing the striker’s path in the slide. Shortly after this, the cam has reached a point where the cocking lob disengages from the striker. The striker springs forward firing the pistol.
Now, as the slide moves to the rear, it moves the cutout for the upper surface of the trigger bar (visible at the top rear of the pistol) out of position and the slide pushes the trigger bar down and out of engagement with the cocking cam.
The cocking cam is spring loaded and will return to its original position at this point.
Now, as the slide travels forward, the striker will again engage the cocking lobe (resetting the striker). When the cutout in the slide comes back into position above it, the trigger bar will try to rise into its spring loaded position. If the trigger is still held back at this point, the tab on the trigger bar will be forward and below its starting position on the cocking cam. Allowing the trigger to go forward causes the trigger bar to move rearward and up, engaging its original position on the cocking cam. The gun is now completely reset and ready to go again.


Hope this helps and if, I'm incorrect in my description, someone will correct me.:)
Regards,
Greg

Here's my .02 worth on it. Jocko and Bawanna can correct me if my thinking is out of whack here. It seems that with various bullet problems in kahr barrels, they may be short throated. I don't have any way to measure this exactly but if bullets aren't seated DEEP we all seem to notice slides hanging up and sometimes going into battery but get FTF issues. The Federal primers are known to be soft and apparently cure other problems we may not notice in our ammo. Upon looking into a Kahr barrel and then a standard 1911 barrel, one notices a definate difference in the way the rifling looks. Such is also the case with a Glock barrel. As Jocko pointed out on another post by me, a few thousandths will make a big difference when it comes to seating depth. Along with this, it is also necessary to look at bullet configuration. A flat nose bullet has different dimensions than a ball (round nose) bullet. This may seem elementary to those who reload a lot but a paralell sided bullet will hang up when a tapered sided bullet will work in a Kahr barrel.

Other things may be at play here as well but we have to go through it all to solve some of these annoying problems.

The wealth of knowledge and patience here amazes me all the time.

jfrey

gb6491. very well done

jfrey. I would have to agree with you that maybe for some reason kahrs are kinda tight throated. I when I had my kahr custom worked over at Cylinder and Slide, they throated the barrel in the process. So I am not qualified to ever say I had rounds stuck in my barrel. . Reloaders have to be more careful for what may seem like a tad bit longer, will just not fit in some guns PERIOD. Not the guns fault either. Nice post ..

so damn much information on this forum, maybe kahr techs should be reading some of it--????I do really like what Bawanna stated a few days ago about one testing out his carry ammo for sure by inserting in the barrel and if it falls back out, it is gooto go afar as not over seating goes. New ammo can give issues.

Great desctiption of the firing cycle.

I'm going out on a limb and suggest that there are two kinds of "dead trigger" FTF's

1. No primer strike -- striker is in precock position, but trigger bar is not in reset position

2. Light primer strike -- striker did not go to (or hold in) precock and observed strike may be from inertia -- not sure why that would be a "sometimes" event, perhaps clearances or parts tolerences at the outter limits of spec? Different loads "vibrating" the parts differently?

Striker protusion past breech face-

Very good descriptions of sequence of parts thanks-
I'll be firing a combat match tomorrow,trying out my change in striker protrusion from the breech face from 0.025 to 0.035 to accomodate a typical taper crimp on lead bullet; I believe this slight bullet crimp and a chambering of 0.910 on my P45, plays into poor light off of reloads. Bullets are not striking long in chamber in to rifling or barrel not going to battery. So will report tomorrow.

Happy DANCE!! My P45 will now run my reloads after increasing the striker distance past the breech and using Fed 150 primers. 80 rounds of combat stages no FTF.

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Originally Posted by gman

Happy DANCE!! My P45 will now run my reloads after increasing the striker distance past the breech and using Fed 150 primers. 80 rounds of combat stages no FTF.

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did u get a new striker from kahr and for some reason it is longer than the one that wa sin your gun, or do you think u had a bad striker or a partial tip broken off or waht.

Gman, could you explain to us exactly what you did to adjust your striker length and how you got it longer.

jfrey

I've said in many posts that I believe the lightstrike problem with Kahrs, (a pretty common complaint), is caused by short strikers. The design specs seem to be too close, too "just enough", offering no over-engineering redundancy. Solving this problem as well as the magazine follower design shortfalls would render the Kahrs near perfect, IMHO.

Mr. Ripley16 I agree!!!

"Short Striker" contributed to my light primer strikes. My reloads sit in the chamber approx. 0.008 deeper than a factory cartridge, due to the slight taper crimp required on a lead bullet. This additional headspace makes the striker "short striker" maybe ?design not reliably lighting off the primer. So the striker gets to bounce the mass of cartridge before its gets backed up by the depth of chambering of 0.910.

This additional reload headspace of in my case 0.008 or a slightly shorter cartridge (0.898) absorb the striker kinetic energy making it sensitive to "harder" primers. Backing up the cartridge movement could also be possibly bullet seating depth in the lands.
Interestingly, my reloads checked in my pistol cartridge gage have exactly the same length as factory cartridges (WWB and Wolf black box Poly steel case). I see the seating depth in the barrel chamber be 0.008 between factory and my reloads, it's not the case length its the slight taper crimp and the cambering shoulder left by the chamber reamer.

How I got a modified the striker to obtain longer striker protrusion. Careful "smithing of the face of the striker shoulder " so stiker body could present the striker pin thru the breech.
What does a new vs a several hundred rounds have and what does a problematic FTF P45 have. My had 0.025 very sensitive to cartridges. I had one response indicated 0.035, others???

It would be great to nail this down, so we could depend on these guns going bang.

Like to see the machine drawings on the striker and slide dimensions, to see what the protrusion is really suppose to be. Machining the depth of striker channel could be a little short or surface burrs could easily take away a crucial 0.005 to 0.010 in that would need to have 200 plus rounds fired to "maybe" make it run reliably. Just a thought

Continued Happy Dance P45, Shot my IDPA match (80 RNDS) yesterday; moving shooting, weak hand, strong hand, rapid all the good situation firing. I'm beginning to trust this firearm for once. All of this fired with my standard reload, (Federal primers, 205 RNFP Bear Creek Black Bullet, 5.7 grains Win 231). Flawless running using all my 4 mags. NEVER WOULD have this gun done this before.

I firmly believe Kahr has a problem with producing short strikers. This is a problem seen in many posts. It is either a striker problem or a breech wall thickness problem. Kahr needs to develope a way to check this before shipping guns.

The only striker fired pistol I've ever shot that was plagued with light strikes is a Kahr. Other manufacturers have designs that work... Kahr needs to address this. Over-engineering is a good quality in firearms. "Just enough" is a poor quality.

Hi, I'm new to the forum. Bought a used P45 with almost no apparent use. Went to the range and had numerous failures to fire except with Hornady Critical Defense 185 Grain 45ACP. Disassembled and ultrasonically cleaned the slide and all its components, but there was no change. Read the thread on this forum and did some measuring. The striker protrudes past the breachface by .024" and the chamber as measured from the hood to the step where the rifling begins measures .909". (I realize both of these are .001" off, but that's what it measured as I measured it.) I measured from the hood to the cartridge face on twenty of the Hornady loads and all measured between .004" - .006". I have shot 60 rounds of this ammo and every round fed, fired & cycled. I measured my reloads the same way. These reloads work flawlessly in one single action revolver, two double action revolvers, three various size Colt 1911s and a Springfield XD. The measurements were from .005" - .015", with the vast majority being .012" - .015". These rounds were firing less than 50% of the time on the first strike, although if rotated and fired they did sometimes work.

I believe Gman is right about the critical nature of the head spacing and striker length. I hate to think how long I would have worked to figure this out by myself. I will try gunsmithing the firing pin to protrude .010" further, but not until I order a stock one to have in reserve. My thanks to those in the forum who did the leg work on this.

for sure get a new striker and order a new striker spring while ur doing it . I would also test out ur gun with new factory ball ammo to see how things goes. not saying it is ur reloads but workng perfect with new hornady ammo and not ur reloads might give some indication it could be ammo related. I would be surprised if the striker u have is out of spec but get a new one and then measure both and u will know...

You may find that the slide's hole is tapered, and similarly there is a radius to the shoulder on the striker...

The striker itself may be hardened. Did it file easily or did you sand it/grind it/buff it with a craytex wheel?

What is the total firing pin protrusion at this point?

and anudder thing

Who says you need a slight taper crimp on lead bullets?

The expansion ball should be sized to expand the brass to allow a snug fit on the bullet - jacketed or lead, either way. Some lead bullets very - but the real fix is not the crimp, but instead, the expander ball.

The taper crimp was designed to turn in the flare needed to start the bullet. The case and bullet should not be "resized" as a unit with the taper crimp - which can happen!

A small straight edge, and you'll see how much crimp is actually _not_ needed!~ :o

I did try 230 grain factory ball ammo (American Eagle by Federal and Aluminum cased Blazer by CCI). I also tried 230 grain Remington Golden Saber hollowpoints. All worked better than my reloads, but none were 100% like the Hornady Critical Defense 185 grain ammo. Unfortunately, I hadn't read this thread, so I wasn't smart enough to check the headspacing before I ran through all that ammo. I did order two new striker and recoil springs which should come next week. Also, I will have to learn some more about reloading to see if I can make reliable practice ammo for the Kahr.

I like ur attitude though, u are determined to solve what is happening. . keep us posted. I was hopeing that you wouldhave ordered a new striker spring while u were at it, just to know for yourself that all thingin the striker channel now are new.. U just eliminating all the possabilities when u do that stuff..

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Originally Posted by Standpat

I did try 230 grain factory ball ammo (American Eagle by Federal and Aluminum cased Blazer by CCI). I also tried 230 grain Remington Golden Saber hollowpoints. All worked better than my reloads, but none were 100% like the Hornady Critical Defense 185 grain ammo. Unfortunately, I hadn't read this thread, so I wasn't smart enough to check the headspacing before I ran through all that ammo. I did order two new striker and recoil springs which should come next week. Also, I will have to learn some more about reloading to see if I can make reliable practice ammo for the Kahr.

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I'm having pretty much the same problems with my P45, I ordered 2 sets of springs as well, I'll have them in this weekend.

I would highly doubt your handloads. I used 2 factory loads (230grn Speer Gold Dots, my carry load, and Remington 230grn FMJ) along with my handloads (again... 230grn Gold Dots and 230grn FMJ's in a mix of brass) and I have misfires with all of them. IMHO the 45ACP is one of the easiest rounds to handload for as far as dimensions (OAL, etc...) and you really have to try to make them unshootable.

I'm beginning to believe it's the relationship between headspace and firing pin protrusion, but I'm working with my P45 to eliminate everything else in the meantime.

Hi Charlie98. Last night I took a small jewelers file to the shoulder of the firing pin and then polished the shoulder and tapered end of the firing pin with a kratex Dremel tool. As I measure it, the striker now extends another .005", which puts it about .029" - .030" from the breach face. I also replaced the striker and recoil springs with new factory springs.

I went to the range and fired 58 factory rounds, all of which fired. This was Winchester White box 230 grain, Blazed Aluminum Cased 203 grain, Remington Golden Saber 230 grain and Hornady 185 grain Critical Defense ammo. Every round fired. I then fired 66 rounds of my reloads, from the same lot that didn't work last time, all but one fired. I really think it didn't fire because the slide was not quite to full battery. It fired when I ran the slide part way back to cock the striker, and then ran the slide all the way forward.

I think the extra .005" fixed the problem. I'm not going to file it any further.

I dropped all new springs in my P45, it fired 100% with factory ammo and about 80% with my standard reload... light at the end of the tunnel, perhaps.

I still think there is a issue with the firing pin protrusion, I may wind up polishing down the striker shoulder and see how that does.

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Originally Posted by jocko

gb6491. very well done

jfrey. I would have to agree with you that maybe for some reason kahrs are kinda tight throated. I when I had my kahr custom worked over at Cylinder and Slide, they throated the barrel in the process. So I am not qualified to ever say I had rounds stuck in my barrel. . Reloaders have to be more careful for what may seem like a tad bit longer, will just not fit in some guns PERIOD. Not the guns fault either. Nice post ..

so damn much information on this forum, maybe kahr techs should be reading some of it--????I do really like what Bawanna stated a few days ago about one testing out his carry ammo for sure by inserting in the barrel and if it falls back out, it is gooto go afar as not over seating goes. New ammo can give issues.

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jocko,

I am in the queue for my P45 to go to Cylinder & Slide for an action job and complete tuneup. I am experiencing some FTFire with my second P45 bought used. Don't know if the PO changed any springs or made any mods to this handgun ... can't see any evidence of that. Have you had complete reliability with your weapon since you got it back from C&S? Did you get any comment from them about anything they may have done relating to this issue?

I have had no issues of FTFire with my first P45, bought shortly after these weapons were available for purchase. I have not checked to find out the manufacture date of the second used one. Since I use (or intend to use) this weapon for personal protection, it's imperative for it to work everytime the trigger is pulled. I have personal experience with C&S with other handguns, all revolvers. I am very hopeful that they can sort out all/any issues with my P45 and return it to me fully functional. I would appreciate any comments or thoughts you may have about the service you received from them on your Kahr. If you wish to make these off line, let me know and I'll provide contact info, or you can do the same and I'll get in touch. Thanks very much for any help you can give.

So long ... Pudge
SE NM

My P.45 also has light strikes. Some times The chambered round that didn't fire will stick and I can hardly get it out. Once could tell the slide had'nt closed and hit it on back and it fired. Have tired 6 differant loads and all will do this. (factory) After having many problems with a P.380 I got rid of it. I have a PM9 that I have worked with a lot and think its reliable but still don't trust it 100%. Can't believe I was stupid enough to buy the P.45. Guess I throught that one out of three would work. Great feel, trigger, and acc But not much good if they not go bang. Spent enough on ammo to buy another pistol.

I've owned four Kahrs ... two P45s, a CW9, and a P380. All but one P45 were bought new. All except the used P45 have worked very well after the requisite breakin period recommended by Kahr. The new 45 and the new 9 had very few issues even during the breakin period. The P380 took a bit longer to get past breakin issues, but since that time has funtioned properly and I like it very well. Having bought the second P45 used, I have no idea what the previous owner may have done to it or had done to it. It does not appear to have fired many rounds, and I only have the FTFire with certain brands of ammo, specifically most often with S&B ammo. I have had no FTFs with premium ammo, just FMJ practice ammo. There is a definite difference in the primer strike of the used P45 and the one I bought new. I like the Kahrs very much, but I've gotta resolve the FTFs with this last one or it's not worth much!